Generating Effects with Cyber and Electronic Warfare
September 24, 2025
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This transcript was generated with the assistance of AI. Please report inconsistencies to comms@afa.org.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, now that General Hensley is here, we can start. Okay, good afternoon everybody, how you doing? Okay, let’s have a riveting applause for these three gentlemen who are gonna talk to you about generating effects with cyber and electronic warfare. Not there’s much going on with cyber, but let’s start with Larry Fenner, who is the commander of the 350th Spectrum Warfare Wing. Let’s have him introduce himself and give you a little opening comment.
Col. Larry Fenner, Jr.:
Hey, thanks General. Colonel Larry Fenner, commander 350th Spectrum Warfare Wing. First, I just wanna say thank you all for taking an interest in the EMSO enterprise because there are some very promising things on the horizon. I wanna thank our industry partners, because they’re the ones that are doing the work and I wanna thank our industry partners, because last time I checked, I don’t build any of these pods, I don’t make some of these fancy B-21, F-22 aircraft, you all do, and we figure out ways to exploit the kit and make the EMSO enterprise and the techniques and the capabilities on those aircraft exploit the environment. And I also wanna thank AFA, ’cause this is a great opportunity to just engage with industry and tell them exactly where we’re going with the 350th and where we’re going with the EMSO enterprise and how we can grow and what are the requirements that we’re looking for to dominate the spectrum and win. So I’m looking forward to our discussion.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Good, thanks Larry. And as part of our panel, we have Colonel Eddie Gutierrez, who is the deputy commander of Mission Delta 3. So Eddie, tell us what Mission Delta 3 is and a little bit about yourself.
Col. Eddie Gutierrez:
All right, thank you. I am the deputy commander for Mission Delta 3 and from the integrated mission Delta that the CSO talked about earlier at the conference is we combined our acquisitions, cyber and intel professionals along with our EW operators all under one commander. And so from a Mission Delta standpoint is we can kind of, we’re synergistic. We’re combining the teams together in order to get after the EW fight. One of the things as I’m the acquisition of personnel for the Mission Delta. And so within that construct is we see what the operators face on a daily basis. We look at the evolving threat and then we have the ability to take what they need and go after with our industry partners and to address those in just under 106 command. We don’t have to go across field commands. We’re able to do it within our own purview and execute in real time.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, thanks Eddie. And then our most esteemed, last but not least, panel member is Colonel Marcus Dieujuste. Colonel D as I like to call him ’cause I usually don’t do his name, last name very well. He’s the 867th Cyber Ops Group Deputy Commander. So Marcus, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Col. Marckenson Dieujuste:
Thank you, sir. No pressure. So appreciate the opportunity to share my perspective as well. I think it’s an honor to share the stage here with General Skinner as well as my panel members. Colonel Marcus Dieujuste, I am the 867th Cyberspace Operations Group. Essentially the group consolidate all the cyber effects Airmen as well as intel professionals that are presented to the Cyber National Mission Force. I’m also dual-hatted as the Air Force Component Commander to CNMF. Essentially in tangible terms, what that means is that any time we have Air National Guard members, Air Force Reserve members, or other members presented to CNMF, they would fall under my command. In the group, we are one, rather in the wing, we are one, my group is one of four groups within the wing. The 667th Cyberspace Wing, essentially we call ourselves the Premier Cyber Wing. I’m not sure if we have any 688th partners in the room here. Yes, indeed. So to tell you quickly about the other groups, we’ve got two force generation groups, the 67th Cyberspace Operations Group commanded by Colonel Voorhees. They are, within that group, all the offensive forces aligned to combatant commands, working Air Force priorities are aligned under that group. The 567th Cyberspace Operations Group formed the Cyber Protection Force. So essentially, they’re primarily responsible for point defense. And last but not least, the 318th Cyberspace Operations Group underpins just everything that’s happening within the wing. They are responsible for formal training for cyber, as well as information operations, testing, capability development, as well as exercise support. On Monday, General Hensley, as well as a few other senior leaders, talked about the expanding cyber threat. I’d be remiss if I did not mention how proud I am to stand shoulder to shoulder with the cyber effects Airmen, as well as the intel professionals in this wing who are standing in the gap to counter those threats.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Marcus, you do realize there’s an old saying that says, “Know your audience.” As part of that, it means know the panel moderator, who was the first 688th Wing Commander.
Col. Marckenson Dieujuste:
So I think you’re gonna get every question that we have this afternoon, how’s that? Thanks, and again, to Larry’s point, we wanna thank AFA, right? ‘Cause I mean, this is a great venue to get everyone together, to really focus on the hard problems, and working with industry, working with academia, working with the research labs, and working with the operational communities and the staffs to really get after these hard problems that we have today. So what we’re gonna do today is, for the next 35 minutes, I’m gonna ask them a few questions, and then in the middle of that, we’re gonna have a little lightning round. Because as you know, most panel members like to talk a lot per question, so I’m giving them a strict orders and direction that for the middle part, it is a one word or one sentence answer to the questions. But before we get to that, the first question I think most people wanna understand, ’cause we’ve talked about EW and cyber for a long time, right, and how do we integrate, and how do we bring that into the multi-domain operations framework? How are you commanders and deputy commanders thinking differently than previous commanders and deputy commanders about EW and cyber as force multipliers in these multi-domain operations? Larry, go ahead.
Col. Larry Fenner, Jr.:
Well, to keep with a one word answer, integration. That’s the biggest challenge for me. For the 350th, we have been rolling pretty hard to move the IMSO enterprise forward. But that has been predominantly in the air-breathing domain. What we understand now and what has been the push from the US Air Force Warfare Center is we need to move IMSO capabilities and integrate with cyber, with space, so that we can better understand how we can bring IMSO capabilities to the forefront at the tactical edge where the warfighter is gonna need it. So I know the title of this is integrating EW and cyber, but it truly is integrating EW and cyber so that we dominate in the air and space domain. And that is the biggest challenge. And I will tell you, the biggest challenge behind that is we don’t know what space does. There is some pretty significant read-ins that you would have to go through so that you can sit down and have those candid discussions on what is in the realm of the possible. I believe that that innovative spark comes from just being able to have a common baseline and understanding what space brings to bear, what cyber brings to bear. And then that innovative spark comes as, well, we have a capability or we have a technique that we can potentially utilize that will allow us to dominate particular nodes in the spectrum that will give our warfighters a sizable advantage. And I think that’s the big thing for us in the 350 integration.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Eddie, as a material leader, how are you thinking differently?
Col. Eddie Gutierrez:
So when I actually came over into the EW, ’cause I don’t have an EW background, and they tried to explain to me the difference between EW and cyber, and I said, “They both sound very similar.” So they’re still trying to explain it to me, but what we look at is commonality across the board. And when industry comes and talk to us, I just basically tell them, an aperture is just a delivery vehicle for us. And so a cyber effect, or what we like to call an RF payload, goes across the EMS spectrum, and we can deliver those effects. And so what we don’t wanna do is try to pigeonhole into cyber or EW capability. And really what we’re trying to drive for is the effects across the board for the joint force. And we don’t wanna get into the specialty authorities piece for our operators. And so what we try to do is break it down to the simplest method we can, and then just integrate those capabilities onto our weapon systems, and so that we can deliver what’s asked.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, Marcus.
Col. Marckenson Dieujuste:
So I’ll just add to what Colonel Fenner and Colonel Gutierrez added. So I think for me, flexibility and resilient communications. So first, flexibility. So I think for cyber space and EW offers policymakers, as well as command commanders, a level of flexible options across the full competition continuum, especially during the competition phase. There are spaces in competition that with cyber capabilities and effects that we can get after to shape the operational environment that other domains are not able to offer those types of options during competition. When you look at long range kill chains, so if General Kaczor were here, I think she’d talk about be the bolt. The communication systems that we need to have, the communications links, as far as securing those links to enable those types of concerns are critical. And then looking at it from the adversary standpoint, cyber operators, intel professionals, the missions, the options that develop to disrupt the adversaries communications, those systems that ultimately impact their ability to do the same to us. Those are the two aspects I would offer to answer that question.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, thank you. Colonel Eddie, what’s one misconception as we talk about framing the operational environment, as we talk about whether it’s acquisition, whether it’s operations, whether it’s, you name it, what’s one misconception about cyber and EW that you wish this audience better understood?
Col. Eddie Gutierrez:
So one, they’re not different. And two, what cyber and EW offer is we left a bang. We can offer a lot of effects that can either shape of the joint force from a non-kinetic perspective. With irreversible effects. And we say that to the fact that people can employ us and we gotta not get scared about it ’cause we can definitely do stuff in the EW spectrum that allows non-negating effects, but the latter adversaries know that we can reach out and touch you. EW is the original long range fires. I mean, we go from terrestrial all the way out to geo. We reach out and touch somebody. So I hope everybody understands that when employed, we can be effective.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, Marcus, what’s one misconception you wish they would know?
Col. Marckenson Dieujuste:
I would say, so I think with cyber, cyber warfare and EW, it’s easy to default to think about those fields as highly technical fields, and they are. I think the misconception is the fact that the adversary is a breathing, thinking adversary that we are fighting. And when we think about warfare, cyber warfare or what EW brings to the fight in those terms, it forces us to think about ultimately, what are the strategic objectives that that adversary is looking to achieve? What are their goals? And we quickly find out that that will help us shape the different options that we present from a cyber standpoint, EW standpoint, differently when we think about the strategic context, the strategic objectives that the adversary is looking to achieve against us.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, as commanders and deputies, one of the things that you’re chartered to do is ensure effectiveness of your operations, ensure effectiveness of your organization. How do you measure the effectiveness of your effects in your mission space? Larry?
Col. Larry Fenner, Jr.:
So for us, I get this question a lot of, what are the metrics and how do you determine if you are effective in your non-kinetic effects game plan? One, if our adversary lacks the ability to talk to each other, so their scheme of maneuver and their ability to operate seems disjointed or it is not optimal, where it’s different from what we’ve seen them operate in the past. Missile misdistances, I would say, that’s a pretty good judge. If, ’cause I don’t care how much you can turn and burn, but some of these systems out there, they’re pretty sophisticated. And if they lock you up, they will take you down. And your ECM systems creating that misdistance that allows you to go out there and be lethal and survivable, that’s also a pretty good judge. I’ll also look at our air-to-air kill rate or the ability to prosecute the mission. If Blue is able to go out there and prosecute his mission within the heavily contested airspace that we see for the future and have little to no attrition, while Red suffers surmountable damages, I would say that’s what winning looks like in my book. And if we are developing the capabilities to allow us to stand in and stand off, both offensive and defensive, to operate within those realms, that’s what winning looks like in those metrics that we are definitely looking at.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Marcus, what about you?
Col. Marckenson Dieujuste:
So I think the approach is similar to other domains. Where I think it changes in cyber, you don’t always get the immediate feedback you get when you drop a Mark 82 on a target or one of five rounds going down range. So in those other domains, I think there’s a lot of work that’s been done to understand the parameters of the different munitions, weapon systems, what’s the weapon engagement zone, effective range, so on and so forth. In cyber, at least today, based on where we are, it’s more nebulous in terms of when you actually execute a mission, whether or not it was successful. So I think some of the factors to consider, number one, what were your desired objectives? Were you able to change the adversary’s behavior following a particular engagement? And are there ways to use other domains, whether Intel capabilities, to determine whether or not you actually took out that target?
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Eddie. Anything to add?
Col. Eddie Gutierrez:
So for us, we monitor the spectrum and we have our Intel professionals who sit right next to our operators. And so to go back to try to keep it simple for me, coming from the Army, they showed me a waterfall, like this is what a good signal looks like, and then it goes squiggly, and they said this is what a bad signal looks like. And so we’re able to determine effectiveness that way. And I think with the mission Delta, having the Intel professional sitting there that has the right authorities in order to look at the spectrum the way that they can and provide those effects to us, knowing that if we’re on the right signal and we’re generating the right effects at that time in real time, because technically we know we’re not always in the fight, we don’t see a missile miss, but for us to get some real-time BDA of the signal, just watching that does help us out, be more effective.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Eddie, you talk about the intelligence professionals and really it’s about the force, right? The entire force and the professionals that we have today and into the future. From your perspective, what skills or mindsets are needed for the next generation of EW and cyber operators?
Col. Eddie Gutierrez:
Well, that’s a good question. So, sometimes when they’re away from the fight, they don’t see the tangible effects. In the Army, you know when you’re getting shot at because you hear the cracks of the bullets go by, but from an EW perspective, it’s hard ’cause you’re by the aperture, but you’re just affecting energy on the satellite. Really, it’s that warfighter mindset of where they fit into the joint force scheme and maneuver and what they’re able to achieve. Midnight Hammer was a good example of that for our professionals to show that what they were able to do from an EW perspective enabled the joint force to execute its fight and put bombs on target. And so, you always have to go back to those folks and be like, “Hey, this is what it means “to be in your warfighter.” Yeah, you might be at the frontline, but I told them that they’re at the digital frontline and that’s where the fight’s initially gonna start is with our cyber and EW folks. And so, they always have to be ready. They’re gonna be our first line of defense when we have to go and ratchet it up. So, just making that warfighter mentality in our professionals to understand that that’s where they fit in the whole joint force.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, Marcus.
Col. Marckenson Dieujuste:
So, I would say mindset over skill sets. So, two areas, critical thinking and operational planning. So, in cyber, we operate in a domain where solutions to challenges are not linear. A lot of times, we need young Airmen, big Airmen to take an innovative approach to come up with the solutions. Oftentimes, I will find myself in briefing with senior leaders about a particular operations that was successful, and I’ll go back and think about the actual people who made that operations a success. Oftentimes, it’s a young NCO, a young CGO, taking a very innovative approach, folks who are comfortable operating in the gray zone, who came up with those solutions. So, I would say first, critical thinking, because a lot of the capabilities that we have, a lot of the challenges we face, it requires that level of innovation to determine what the solutions are. And then the other piece, operational planning. I think in our community, specifically in cyber, we need a lot of folks who are versed in planning. So, for our teammates on the Army and Marines, from the Marine Corps, I know from the time that they enter the service, it’s ingrained in them. Colonel Fenner talked about earlier integration of cyber, EMSO, EW, and space. We need, as we work on planning, we need cyber operators who understand planning so that we can ensure the operations that we have, the options we have to offer are integrated into those plans.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Larry.
Col. Larry Fenner, Jr.:
So, I would go back to integration. You need a, ’cause what you hear is the EMSO lane, space, cyber, but if we operate within our own stovepipes, there’s a lot of things being missed. What capabilities are being brought to bear, and is there a non-kinetic effects director or integrator that can take those different capabilities? ‘Cause a lot of times we don’t know what’s in the environment of possible ’cause it’s in a stovepipe somewhere. But when it comes to bringing synergistic effects, non-kinetic effects, to get after those individual nodes, we have to get the operator of the future or the planner of the future that is a non-kinetic effects planner, not EMSO, not cyber or space, but a non-kinetic effects planner that is read in, understands the capabilities that exist and how they can exploit the different nodes that we want to attack from red to support the scheme and maneuver for blue. That’s what we need. We need folks that know these capabilities, that can sit down with the entire team and move the entire team forward that can employ non-kinetic effects.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
So if you’re in education and training, or you support education and training, you just heard, right? Operational planning, critical thinking, how do we develop critical thinking and problem solving and being able to bring technology and bring operational maneuver to solve those problems and those challenges? Okay, let’s change it up a little bit, a little lightning round for everyone. Okay, and I promise the questions will not get you in trouble. Your answers may, but your questions will not. Okay, so Larry, we’ll start with you and go down and then we’ll start with Eddie on the second one and then Mark’s on the third one. Okay, what’s the most overhyped term relative to cyber and EW?
Col. Larry Fenner, Jr.:
That’s a difficult one. So that’s a difficult one. So I’m just gonna probably say data.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay.
Col. Larry Fenner, Jr.:
‘Cause I feel like data is this, data is that, but there’s a lot of data out there. What are you gonna do with the data? There’s a lot of data that ends up on the cutting room floor but is it pertinent to what we need to accomplish in our schema maneuver for non-kinetic effects? So I would say data.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, that was like four sentences. So Eddie, one word or sentence, most overhyped term in cyber EW.
Col. Eddie Gutierrez:
I’m gonna say non-kinetic ’cause we need to start being kinetic.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, Marcus.
Col. Marckenson Dieujuste:
I would say zero trust, even though I’m a big believer in the principles of zero trust.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, Eddie, we’ll start with you. What’s the biggest threat in the next five years?
Col. Eddie Gutierrez:
Well, I think we know China. So they’re our biggest threat right now.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, Marcus, you may be at a disadvantage now ’cause he said the known word, but.
Col. Marckenson Dieujuste:
I would say the evolution of drone warfare. I suspect what we’ve seen in Ukraine is just the tip of the iceberg.
Col. Larry Fenner, Jr.:
Yeah, I gotta go with UAS on that one. If you talk about defense of the homeland and the threat to the homeland, UAS is where do you, I apologize, I’m probably a couple more sentences here. But study of air power, where can you do the most damage to air power? On the ground. And as we’ve seen in the news articles and the things that have played out, you can do a lot of damage. And that is not a sight we want the American people to see, doing a lot of damage to our Air Force on the ground.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, Marcus, who wins the Super Bowl this year?
Col. Marckenson Dieujuste:
New York Jets.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Larry.
Col. Larry Fenner, Jr.:
Man, I can’t believe I’m about to say this, but yeah, Chicago Bears, ’cause I’m a diehard. Bear down.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Eddie.
Col. Eddie Gutierrez:
My team’s not any better, the Raiders.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, speaking of football, right? They have offense and defense, right? Some people say defense wins championships, some people say offense wins championships. Which is more effective in cyber and EW, offense or defense? Larry.
Col. Larry Fenner, Jr.:
Offense.
Col. Eddie Gutierrez:
Offense.
Col. Marckenson Dieujuste:
Defense.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Why are they laughing on the defensive side? Defense wins championships, remember that.
Col. Larry Fenner, Jr.:
Air power is inherently offensive.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, Marcus, is convergence of cyber, space, and EW happening fast enough?
Col. Marckenson Dieujuste:
I don’t think so. So I think there’s a lot of work we need to do. A lot of work we need to do from an authority standpoint that continue to create the silos that Colonel Fenner talked about. I don’t think that’s happening fast enough.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Larry.
Col. Larry Fenner, Jr.:
No. From my time of being a command EW at PACOM, I remember we were talking about cyber EW convergence, and now I’m the 350th Spectrum Warfare Wing Commander. I’m like, okay, we need to do some integration now, ’cause it hasn’t happened yet. But I kind of say that, but that’s probably because I’m saying it from where I stand and where I sit, because that’s not to say that our cyber brethren and our space brethren haven’t been moving out in that area. But as the guy that is in charge of moving EMSO Enterprise forward, I can tell you I need to work with my teammates to get better.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, Eddie.
Col. Eddie Gutierrez:
So I don’t think we’re not moving fast enough, but we are trying to address it, at least in our own, between the mission deltas, within the EW and the cyber, start doing combined arms planning, which is a big key in order to get this integration, just from at least from the space side. We’re trying to work that ourselves, where traditionally they would just kind of do their own thing, and we’re doing that now across the board, even with our orbital warfare. But we have to take our EW, and when we start talking EW layered effects, that’s gonna be considered with our air partners also, and the cyber folks, what everybody’s doing is, when we start layering in effects, is that’s when we’re gonna be the most decisive at that point for the joint force.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, for the next three questions, one word, one sentence. Okay, what is one emerging tech that will reshape the fight in 10 years? Marcus, you wanna go first?
Col. Marckenson Dieujuste:
AI.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
AI, okay. He took it. Okay, Larry.
Col. Larry Fenner, Jr.:
Stealth.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Stealth, okay.
Col. Eddie Gutierrez:
I’ll use the other one, machine learning.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay. Okay, Larry, I’ll go with you. Quantum. Real near-term impact, or still nascent? Quantum.
Col. Larry Fenner, Jr.:
No. Near-term impact, definitely.
Col. Eddie Gutierrez:
Near-term impact.
Col. Marckenson Dieujuste:
Still nascent.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
That’s the second question you’ve been out on your own, but that’s good. That’s diverse thinking. That’s what we like to see. What keeps you up at night, Marcus?
Col. Marckenson Dieujuste:
The unknown unknowns. So, is there another vault typhoon, salt typhoon we have yet to uncover?
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, Larry.
Col. Larry Fenner, Jr.:
Losing, I hate losing. So, I’m making sure that we get the reps and sets, and engagements, so we can win. It’s not just a coin phrase, where we say dominate the spectrum and win. I hate losing.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Who’s your football team?
Col. Larry Fenner, Jr.:
There’s a story there, but.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, Eddie.
Col. Eddie Gutierrez:
The proliferated LEO architecture that is currently going up. What’s the large problems that to solve that we have to get after?
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Good, good answer, gentlemen. Marcus, you talked about vault typhoon, salt typhoon. What trends in adversary behavior are shaping how you think about cyber EW effects? At least that’s what you can share to the audience.
Col. Marckenson Dieujuste:
So, to keep me on the right line, everything I’m about to say will, I’ll reference joint cybersecurity advisory that CISA in coordination with interagency, as well as partner nations released last year. So I think some of the trends we’ve seen, I think that was a great case study to answer that question. So we’re seeing adversaries focusing on pre-staging and long-term strategic objectives, as opposed to disrupting networks and stealing data as soon as they gain initial access. So that’s one change that we’ve seen. The other one, living off the land, to essentially evade detection, very hard to detect. And from our cybersecurity service providers, in terms of how we approach defensive cyber operations, detecting and countering those types of techniques will require some adjustments on our part. And then the last piece I will add is the use of AI to automate the vulnerability discovery process, developing exploits that will speed up the process of offensive cyber operations.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, Larry, what trends are you seeing? What trends are you seeing?
Col. Larry Fenner, Jr.:
I would say the AI machine learning is the big trend that I’m seeing. The advancements I’m seeing, I was a bit of a naysayer when it came to AI machine learning. And I wanna say thank you to my industry partners ’cause they’ve opened up the door and showed me some of the things that they’re working on. But I think we should be on version 20 and not version one if we’re truly going to get something that is gonna be worthwhile, that we’re going to be able to utilize for the next fight. So I would say that will be the big thing for me, AI machine learning and integrating it early and often in the capabilities that we bring out ’cause that’s how we’re gonna learn, that’s how we teach it, and that’s how we’re gonna get better.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, Eddie, separate question for you. What is your biggest ask of the acquisition community to help you gain, maintain positional advantage in your mission?
Col. Eddie Gutierrez:
So we need some more RF payloads. And I say that in order for us to deliver effects. Sometimes we need some lasting effects. Brute force jamming will only get us so far. And so just developing some of those different waveforms for us so that it just adds a different tool in our toolbox to use when called upon. That’s what I would ask for.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay. In five to 10 years, Marcus, how do you envision cyber and EW being used together on the battlefield?
Col. Marckenson Dieujuste:
So I think integration and convergence. Today, we think about EW and cyber as two separate field even though there are efforts to drive towards conversions in EW space and cyber. In five to 10 years, I see those two areas being almost indistinguishable in terms of the lines between where does a cyber operation stops and EW starts or vice versa. Ultimately, they will become a lot more blurred.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay. Larry, different question. How is AI, we talked a lot, AI is a big word used a lot. How is AI shaping the future of EW and cyber? Target identification, response, and overall mission to generate effects.
Col. Larry Fenner, Jr.:
So that is a great question and very timely question ’cause we’re already seeing the use of machine learning and AI for automated threat detection. As you can imagine, these EOBs are very vast. What we need to know is where the anomalies occurring and where do we need to point our analysts and our engineers to start peeling back what that particular signal is doing. So automated threat detection, things that are outside of the intelligence community’s baseline, absolutely invaluable as opposed to sifting through petabytes of data to find those anomalies. Also, automated threat identification. Is that a threat? Is it just an early warning signal or is it something else? Or is it maybe just a communication signal coming from a non-threat? Those are the things that I believe, well, when we talk about moving at the speed of the fight, not just speed of relevance, I’m looking at the speed of the fight to be able to ascertain what are the anomalies out there and to be able to rapidly adjust to those and push that back out to the warfighter so they have the ability to rapidly adapt, sense, ID, locate, and counter.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Eddie, anything to add?
Col. Eddie Gutierrez:
So we’re definitely trying to implement AI and machine learning just through dynamic targeting and dynamic firing. How we view the EMS spectrum and the amount of signals that we’re gonna see our adversary using, jumping between transponders and PID, we’re gonna need some AI in there to figure that out for us because of just the amount of information that’s coming in, the cognitive workload on the operator, they’re not gonna be able to do it all. And so they’re gonna need some help and we’re just gonna have to continue to refine it, make it better so that when we’re using it, it’s gonna be our operators on the loop instead of in the loop. And they’re only in the loop when they need to be, but on the loop and just monitoring the fight.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay. Marcus, is cyber deterrence a thing? Why or why not?
Col. Marckenson Dieujuste:
Great question. So I’ll approach this question from two different angles. One, looking at deterrence in doctrine in terms of how we formally define deterrence, I think that the four key elements you’ll find are what I call the four Cs, credibility, capability, communications, and cost-benefit. So from a credibility standpoint, you have to be able to communicate to your adversary that you have, in fact, a capability that you could use to hurt them. So I think this is where I see cyber deterrence, that being extremely challenging because how do you strike the balance of communicating capability that you have in cyber without tipping your hand? And as we know, in terms of cyber offensive cyber capabilities, a lot of that hinge on having access to get in and deliver your payload. Once you communicate that to an adversary, you give them an opportunity to start defending against that. The other angle I would take to say it’s not a thing yet is looking at deterrence by denial. The whole premise for deterrence by denial is centered on the idea that your defense is so strong, the adversary cannot impact you. And we all know that is not the case currently for a lot of our large enterprise networks.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, in the last few minutes, as we wrap this, the panel up, as part of your final thoughts, I’d like you to answer this question within those thoughts. What’s your biggest ask to industry that would generate greater effects today and into the future?
Col. Larry Fenner, Jr.:
I’ll go. I already alluded to one, continuing advancements in stealth as a spectrum guy, I totally believe that stealth is a game changer from the day we actually filled with the F-117 till B-21 and potentially future aircraft that are coming. I think stealth is going to have some phenomenal advantages when it comes to exploiting the spectrum. I will also say stand-in offensive EA and defensive electronic attack, as well as standoff. Those are things that will definitely change the calculus and bring the advantage of dominating the spectrum squarely into the blue corner, incorporating AI and machine learning as well. I believe that what I’ve seen in AI machine learning is showing great promise, but if we keep iterating and iterating, I think we’re going to get something that is going to be phenomenal for the future warfighter.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, Eddie.
Col. Eddie Gutierrez:
I’ll just echo what’s already been said. I think AI and ML is really going to help us out, manage the EW fight as a whole. Industry, I need help with how I deliver payloads. You know, I have certain apertures out there. I need an effective way to where I’m not buying another aperture. I don’t want to be in the hardware business. I’d like to be in the software business where I can just push software through my apertures in order to deliver effects, and because I just don’t have the money to get after another aperture. And this one will expand our round count across the board, ’cause I have a lot of apertures to deliver those effects. And the more effects that I have in the toolbox that industry can provide will just make us more effective.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, Marcus.
Col. Marckenson Dieujuste:
I’ll just add two things. We need secure by design. So again, going back to Monday, General Kaser talked about, having resilient communication systems, communication links. I think when we look at a lot of the solutions that industry delivers, we need those to be designed for security. It’s gotta be, cybersecurity has to be built into the entire life cycle, acquisition life cycle. The other ask, so it’s been three years, four years now, since the NIST specification for Zero Trust was released. As I think about some of the techniques that we’re seeing, I talked about living off the land, adversaries pre-staging for long-term, the ability for us to counter those techniques. I think the cybersecurity principles that are highlighted in that Zero Trust specification, that’s how we will win in the future. So when you talk about least privilege, micro-segmentation, data rights management, all those things, that would be my ask of industry.
Lt. Gen. Robert J. Skinner, USAF (Ret.):
Okay, let’s give this panel a round of applause for some great answers to integrating cyber and EW.